I want to go faster.

Moderators: robnewyork, bassiclyLouDog, gameboy

#4938
WHAT I HAVE TO WORK WITH:
Specs are on my intro thread (still being reviewed my moderators since I'm new), but I'll repost the important stuff here for convenience.

- 24v motor (unsure of the wattage since it's not labeled)
- 24v controller
- Two 24 volt SLA batteries

The bike:
Image

The Current Motor:
Image

The Current Controller:
Image

MY IDEA:
Can you tell please me if the following is worth doing and if it will work? I read all the FAQ's before posting.

Motor:
I'm hoping to swap the motor with a 36v 200w one that looks like this:
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/36vo20mowsp.html

Controller:
A matching controller I assume needs to be 36v also as I've read. Does the wattage need to match anything. I just happened to choose the cheapest one that happened to have a high wattage. Maybe you guys can educate me on compatibility and choosing controllers. Would this work?
http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/36v-1200w-controller.html

Battery:
The battery I'm using is this exact one. I already bought this one for another e-bike project I'm working on. It's a 36v 10ah LiFePo4.
http://www.hightekbikes.com/battery.html

SO WOULD THIS SETUP WORK?
Why wouldn't it? I dunno. I'm just new to this stuff and don't want to blow anything up or break anything. Looking for expert validation I suppose. I assume I should probably replace my belt for a new one so all that power will be going to it and I don't want anything snapping. Anything I should be worried or concerned about? Hoping to pick you guys' brains on this one. I also need to make sure all the connectors work and everything. Thanks
#4956
you should be able to plug in your batteries right now. If the throttle just clicks and won't go then you need a new controller.
For a razor these 2 are the best.
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... uct_id=173
4 wire(cheap)

http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... uct_id=174
5 wire(same as for but more money)

you'll need a variable throttle for this controller if you don't have 1.
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... duct_id=81
#4958
Thanks for your reply man! So excited. So you don't think there's much of a risk of blowing the 24v motor and/or controller with the 36v 10ah LiFePo4 battery? My concern is that I don't want to break what I have existing in case the mod doesn't work, I want to be able to put everything back to stock.

1. Those links are awesome. Prices are pretty amazing. At first I thought the 4 vs 5 wire was how many connectors come out of the controller, but they're both 6. Remember, I'm new to this. But looking at the specs, I think it refers to how many wires come out of the throttle. Would they both work? Will I have an extra wire? I suppose I should further inspect my current controller to see what I have now.

2.Why is it that I need a variable throttle? Just better so I can vary my speed instead of just going from 0 to top speed? Or is it a compatibility issue? Or maybe you're recommending it b/c it'll go too fast? Hahah, I wish. If it goes 10-12mph now at 24v's how fast do you think it'll be with 36v with the same setup (assuming it doesn't just click and actually works)?

3. Do you think getting a 36v 200w motor and 36v controller would be worth doing? What improvement can I expect? I know you don't have a crystal ball, but you definitely have more experience than I do. I won't hold anything to ya.

4. Any precautions I should take while I change out the connector on the bike? My battery has one of these. I guess I need a new one for the other end.

Image
#4972
You won't blow the motor. You may or may not blow the controller. If you don't already have variable, then you might as well pick up the controller/throttle for $30.
throttle wire is really only pos, ground, and signal. the 4 and 5 wires are just the leds on the controller. a 4th wire is reading power. a 5th is 2grounds, and 6 is seperate power status and power meter lights.
As long as you don't use 48v, you can overvolt the motor to 36v and be safe. It'll get really warm, but will run strong for a long time. The reason you only want to apply a little throttle is to conserve battery on take off, cruise at lower speed to save battery, and 36v is just way too much to just turn on/off. You want the control and flexibility you get with var.
10-12 turns into 16-18mph and with the stock back sprocket it's probably close to 20mph.
Swapping the 24v motor for a 36v is a waste of money right now. the 24v will pack more punch on 36v than 36v will on 48v. IF you melt your motor than upgrade, but you'll love this setup 24v motor on 36v.

those are 30amp anderson powerpoles. you can get a couple on ebay, just splice 2 onto the battery connector so you can still use the controller's battery harness. you don't want to cut that off.
#4974
Awesome info. I really appreciate you giving my project attention. I really can use guys like you with your expertise and experience on all this stuff. Can you clarify what you said about the speed? What makes it 16-18mph vs 20? The addition of a new 36v 30amp controller?

Would this package deal work?

http://www.razorama.com/razor-e200-e300-twist-grip-throttle.html

Looks like a lot of throttles are out of stock including this one. I'm on the waiting list to get notified when this thing is available again:
5-wire http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/razor-36-volt-variable-speed-5-wire-twist-grip-throttle-with-36-wires.html
6-wire http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/razor-36-volt-variable-speed-4-wire-twist-grip-throttle-with-36-wires.html

Splicing's a good idea. Glad I got in touch with you first before messing with my setup.
#4984
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... duct_id=82
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... uct_id=173
$30 combo you can't beat it!
The controller doesn't make it more powerful it just allows more juice to come from the battery. imagine the battery is capable of putting out 100amps in 3-4sec burts. That's a big spark. The controller is like a flow control letting 1-30amps out max. That is why you want a var. throttle where a on/off just shoots 30amps at the motor from a dead stop.
say your motor is rated at 2600rpms on 24v...divide the 2 you get roughly 108kv or 108turns per volt. times 36v is 3900rpm! that's a big difference.
http://www.diygokarts.com/speed-calculator.html
8" tires, 2600rpm, 11/55t gearing gives you 12mph on 24v
punch in 3900rpm you get 19mph! on 36v
say you get a 2600rpm 36v motor....72kv 3460rpm on 48v. 16mph.
you can overvolt a motor, but the 24 to 36v is the most dramatic.
BUT...
if you overvolt the 36v motor to 60v you get 4333rpm...21mph.
which is stupid because the 24v to 36v will run much cooler, be cheaper, and feel just as fast as 21mph.
#4992
bassiclyLouDog wrote:http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_79_84&product_id=82
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... uct_id=173
$30 combo you can't beat it!
The controller doesn't make it more powerful it just allows more juice to come from the battery. imagine the battery is capable of putting out 100amps in 3-4sec burts. That's a big spark. The controller is like a flow control letting 1-30amps out max. That is why you want a var. throttle where a on/off just shoots 30amps at the motor from a dead stop.
say your motor is rated at 2600rpms on 24v...divide the 2 you get roughly 108kv or 108turns per volt. times 36v is 3900rpm! that's a big difference.
http://www.diygokarts.com/speed-calculator.html
8" tires, 2600rpm, 11/55t gearing gives you 12mph on 24v
punch in 3900rpm you get 19mph! on 36v
say you get a 2600rpm 36v motor....72kv 3460rpm on 48v. 16mph.
you can overvolt a motor, but the 24 to 36v is the most dramatic.
BUT...
if you overvolt the 36v motor to 60v you get 4333rpm...21mph.
which is stupid because the 24v to 36v will run much cooler, be cheaper, and feel just as fast as 21mph.


Very well said. Thanks for explaining it in simple terms I can understand. Got it. Can't pass up that deal. Thanks for the links man! You're awesome. I'm really starting to like Spiderman for some reason.
#4996
I'm belt shopping and having trouble choosing the right size. Think you can help? I got the dimensions but it falls in btw the standard sizes. Hoping you can make a suggestion.

Current size: 600-3m-15

Available size close to what I have:
600-3m-12

My logic in choosing this one is that the length (600mm) does have room to give, but I can't go shorter. Longer is fine since I have a belt tensioner on my bike. The spacing of the ridges from peak to peak must be 3m. 5m wouldn't work right? That's way off. 12mm width is a little short, but it's better than two wide b/c my tensioner has a limit a bit more than 15mm.

So would the above 600-3m-12 work okay? These things are $18 plus shipping, so I don't want to waste money getting the wrong one. You input would be appreciated.
#5004
Okay, no prob. Thanks for all your direction. I'll let my fun on my full size e-bike wear in for a bit before I put money into this new project. It should be pretty cool. Excited to upgrade this little foldable bike. Had it for years and it literally sat motionless for a few of those years. Lately it's been fun riding it though. Just took it out to go for breakfast this morning. Can't wait to do it again later - except much faster. hahah.
#5125
I did it! I did it! I made the purchase. It's an early Christmas gift to myself. Thanks so much for the advice and help with this. I can't wait 'til I get this thing on. If I can really get to 19mph, that'd be sooooo awesome.
#5126
bassiclyLouDog wrote:http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_79_84&product_id=82
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route= ... uct_id=173
$30 combo you can't beat it!
The controller doesn't make it more powerful it just allows more juice to come from the battery. imagine the battery is capable of putting out 100amps in 3-4sec burts. That's a big spark. The controller is like a flow control letting 1-30amps out max. That is why you want a var. throttle where a on/off just shoots 30amps at the motor from a dead stop.
say your motor is rated at 2600rpms on 24v...divide the 2 you get roughly 108kv or 108turns per volt. times 36v is 3900rpm! that's a big difference.
http://www.diygokarts.com/speed-calculator.html
8" tires, 2600rpm, 11/55t gearing gives you 12mph on 24v
punch in 3900rpm you get 19mph! on 36v
say you get a 2600rpm 36v motor....72kv 3460rpm on 48v. 16mph.
you can overvolt a motor, but the 24 to 36v is the most dramatic.
BUT...
if you overvolt the 36v motor to 60v you get 4333rpm...21mph.
which is stupid because the 24v to 36v will run much cooler, be cheaper, and feel just as fast as 21mph.


The throttle in that link is variable, right?
#5132
As far as I know any over 24v controller requires var. speed. the razors come with toggles, but the links I posted are var. you'd have a crappy time with a toggle on 36v! var saves battery life and is way safer. it's a good idea to gently roll your throttle until you get used to it! Something that small could rock a few lipos. 3 11.1v pks wouldn't be that expensive. put 2 3pks in parallel for extended range.
There's a bit of a learning curve, but if you can even put a low volt buzzer on deck and stopped riding when you heard it you would be safe. At least the bike would be light enough to carry :roll:
#5142
Excellent. Thanks man. The company sent me an email already and said that my throttle and controller have been shipped! Can't wait to put everything together! It's going to be awesome! Can't wait.

bassiclyLouDog wrote:....

those are 30amp anderson powerpoles. you can get a couple on ebay, just splice 2 onto the battery connector so you can still use the controller's battery harness. you don't want to cut that off.


I found out I have spare anderson powerpoles in my garage, 2 pairs! Can you describe in a bit more detail how you recommend that I splice the anderson connectors? Where am I putting it exactly? What is it that I don't want to cut off? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time picturing it.

I'm assuming that I'm replacing the connector from the battery wire coming out of the controller w/the andersons. Is that correct? You mentioned splicing and not just replacing a head, so I'm a bit confused. Please clarify when you have a moment. My battery already has anderson powerpoles.
#5145
just the oppisite. you don't want to cut anything off the controller! when you take out the stock razor batteries, they are soldered together. there is a harness that plugs into the power switch. So when you take out the batteries, save that harness. put a power pole on each wire. this is your 'series connector' and the break between your batteries. sorry about the confusion.
#5156
ABOUT THE SCOOTER:
Thanks. It's a Razor brand distributed by Sharper Image back when they were around. I got it after using a coupon that gives you $200 back if you spend $300. By the end of it, that pretty much means I paid $60 for it. I know. Crazy right? I wish I got two!

NEW BATTERIES?
I'm still going to try replacing the 24v 10ah SLA battery with a 36v 10ah LiFePo4 battery for a test. If it works out, I'd like to be have my electric upright bike AND this one running at the same time. That means I need to sets of batteries if I'm to ride with a friend/wife, or whomever. If 36v works w/o blowing the motor, I'm thinking of getting three 12v 10ah SLA's. I found ones with new dimensions that are skinnier and taller. This will let me fit three in the tray that currently only fits 2! That'd be awesome. It can still look stock but run like a crazy 36v'er. At least that's the plan. We'll see what I can learn about wiring it up.

WHAT CHARGER CAN I USE?
If I were to do that, will I need a new charger? or can I use the existing one that I'm currently using to charge my 24v? Sorry for my ignorance. Not sure if I can still use it but it would just take longer or if it doesn't work that way and I really do need a new charger designed for 36v. What are the other specs to look for? Any recommendations for charging 3 of these puppies?

http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_e ... 250+FASTON

I know I can get them cheaper elsewhere, but I'm hoping to use them for their expertise in wiring the thing. And maybe they got a charger too. What do you guys recommend?
#5157
ouch those are super expensive batteries. A new 36v charger is in order for charging 36v! They are only like $16.
if you are just testing the waters try a cheap set just to get a feel for what you can have. check ebay for some 7ah's....8ah seem to be cheaper and 9ah are way too expensive except on another site i found some cheap 9ah.
anyway i'm getting off track.
if you went lipo you could do a 33v pk from 3s batteries. worth mentioning since you have or are getting a lifepo pk. just don't go over 36v!
wiring is easy. you have your motor wires and your battery wires. the battery pack needs a power switch and a fuse. You will also need a charger port, but other than that the rest of the wires are extra crap. the harnesses on the controller match the harnesses you need to plug in. they are different sizes so it's litterally plug and play.
take the brake switch for example. you only need this if you plan on hitting the brake while twisting the throttle. So the little guy I sold my bike to used his brake wire to power a "tail light" so you could see when he's stopping. smart kid.
worse case scenario you have to put the wires into a harness to hook up your throttle. I know the ones at TNC need plugs, but they're cheap. you can find razor diagrams on monsterscooterparts.com
This is a neat little scooter. I'd like to see it running on 36v it's a jump from what you're used to.
I have a dual motor minibike that's sitting in the shed due to winter and a lack of batteries. I'm still hedging on my final choice. I have no fenders so I won't even take it out until after spring.
#5161
Is there any chance that my battery could get damaged by hooking it up to my mini scoot? It was purchased for my full size e-bike and at $350 a pop, I don't want to risk any damage to it if it's at all possible any harm could be done.

If anything were to go wrong, it would be the controller and then the motor that would overheat and blow right? And in that case my battery should still be okay, right?
#5163
It's a matter of discharge rate. As long as your ebike has a 30a controller you should be ok....overdischarging under load will kill your pack if it drains too quickly. Sorry for the nonsense answer :roll: but it's still greek to me. As far as I know 15c means the battery can discharge a maximum of 15% of its capacity under load. But I don't have any numbers to tell you what that means.
#5167
Sound be fine b/c I got the exact controller you recommend which is specified as 30a. I assume you mean escooter (as opposed to my ebike. My ebike has only a 20a controller).
#5632
After re-reading that, I actually think you DO mean to say ebike. So if my ebike has a 20amp controller and works fine with my Lipo battery, it's okay to use it with my 30amp controller for the mini sharper image scoot right? I'm finally getting down to installing this puppy. been intimated by all these electronics and crazy life stuff happening. Can't wait to get this thing on the road.
#5638
@ BassiclyLouDog: It freakin' worked!!!! It's so coooool. I can't believe it. I wired up that sucker and when I pulled the throttle before even fully seating my behind on the saddle and the thing popped a wheelie!!! OMG! It's so awesome. It's actually a lot better than I thought. It's to a point where it's actually kinda freaky and I'd be very hesitant to let anyone try the scoot.

With the 24v setup, I'd let whoever friend, friend of a friend, family member or whatever try it. No biggie. But with this new 36v setup, it's ridiculously fast for such a small unassuming scoot. You'd never would've thought.

LESSONS LEARNED:
The Universal throttle I got is too tight for the handlebar. The spring isn't strong enough to reset the throttle back to the forward position once rocking it back. In other words, it stays in wide open throttle once the rider rolls it back there. This could be way dangerous but is also nice as a kind of cruise control.

OUTSTANDING PROBLEM:
The on/off button doesn't seem to work anymore. Once I plug this sucker into the battery, it turns on. Did I mention how awesome this is? Hopefully it'll last awhile and the motor won't blow. I gotta keep myself tamed. But man does this thing fly now. I can maybe go faster than people can run - at least normal folks for a sustained amount of time.

FURTHER REVIEW:
The (extra) cost was so minimal to mod this thing up. Using all the parts you gave me, it worked like a charm. Very impressed and I think you'd be too if you were ever around here and took it for a spin. I definitely wouldn't have done this with the LiFePo4 battery if I didn't already have it available on my other ebike project. Pretty cool that I can now use it for both. And that battery lasts quite a while, so now I got even more range than before. The best part is that I don't have to worry about the battery memory since there isn't any.

I can literally just ride and leave it in the garage if I don't have time to charge it right away. And if I do want to charge it right away and I'm not around to unplug it, my existing smart charger for the battery will turn itself off for a safe healthy battery life. Love this thing even more now. I only took it for literally a quick spin not even around the block. I left my garage door open and just rode up and down 2/3 of my block.

My neighbor didn't know who I was checking out cars in the dark. Thought I was scoping out cars to break into or something. Hahha.

I'll have a better review once I really get this thing going for longer rides - at least long enough to complete an errand. I'm rushing home to ride it tomorrow after work. It's gunna be cool. Thank you sooooooo much Mr BassiclyLouDog. You are the man!!! Much appreciated. Dude, if you give me your Paypal email address, I'll show you how appreciative I am in dollar signs.
User avatar
By kmxtornado
#5646
I don't have a speedometer and haven't clocked it, but it definitely feels way faster. It's not just faster than before, but fast in general. Anyone riding this thing would say, "Wow, that's fast." How do I know? I popped a wheelie again by accident again. There's some crazy torque on this monster.

I'LL BE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT WHO I LET RIDE THIS THING:
Figuring I have a high capacity battery, I decided to go further than I've ever gone before on this thing. While riding, I had thought about a few tips I'd have to give anyone who's interested in riding the scoot:

1. Lean forward when you accelerate! This will offset the power coming from the rear and prevent an unexpected wheelie.

2. Roll the throttle back slowwwwwly. If it doesn't move, give a gentle push with your feet. After all, this thing's super tiny. Your feet can definitely reach the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if some people's knees reached the ground while sitting on it!

3. "It's faster than you're expecting." It's fast in fact that top speed is faster than I feel comfortable riding on the sidewalk.

BURNING OUT THE MOTOR?
I'm a bit concerned b/c the motor definitely gets warm. I should've felt the motor while it was running on 24v to see if it had still been warm then. I have no clue if it's hotter than it was before. To be on the safe side, I find myself still riding at the normal speed I had been riding with the 24v setup.

I figure I can zoom up ahead and go crazy only when needed. I'm fairly certain going at top speed the majority of the time would lead to premature failure of the motor. To quickly cross the intersection so motorists don't have to wait so long or when I just feel like showing off my new toy a bit, I roll that throttle way back as I hear the motor go "Zzzzzzz.....oooom!"

The thing's great. It's almost as exciting as when I first got this! I'm very glad I became a member and got some help from you. Hopefully some of my own posts here will be a good contribution to any current or future members looking for similar answers.

CLEANING UP THE WIRING:
I'll post pics soon of how I cleaned it up a bit. I used some wire management stuff I got from a local dollar (fifty) store. Looks much better than it did when I first hooked up all the wires.

STUCK THROTTLE:
This is actually a good thing. I was worried I wouldn't like that the throttle's stuck, but the whole cruise control side effect is working great. I can just rest my palms on the handlebars and cruise w/o having to worry about holding the throttle in a particular position.

VARIABLE THROTTLE:
Apart from just the safety aspect you had mentioned, the variable throttle has other benefits. Since the top speed is now so much higher, the range is also longer and having the adjustment capability helps control the speed much more easily. The throttle's still very touchy.

A full throttle (not even sure if it's available for in my specs) would probably be easier to manage speed than the half throttle I ended up buying, but would require more wrist action. I'm thinking too much about it; the half throttle's working well for what it is. Can't beat the price.
#5650
another satisfied overvolter! I'm so glad you're having fun. An extra 5mph of power is a big deal! These things pull pretty hard if you're not ready. That's what turned me off with my 60v stand up. fear the steering tube would just fold on takeoff!
#5652
That's an understatement as far as satisfied. I'm wayyyy satisfied. I'm glad I finally did it. The reason that it took me so long is I figured I'd wait for my uncle to help me out and scheduling availability btw the two of us was just difficult. Glad I took the plunge and tried to do it myself. It's been amazing.

Yeah, that thing pulls way hard now! I totally can't trust anyone to just get on it and go. I totally have to give them the pre-ride talk. Leaning forward like a goofball is so important on this thing. The rear wheel had so much torque after rolling the throttle that I can imagine it'd knock off an unsuspecting rider. Can't wait have my wife take a test ride - of course with a bit of coaching prior. Haha.
#5656
MORE UPDATES:
The thing's lighter and doesn't have memory loss since two crazy 12v SLA batteries were replaced by the single LiFePo4 36v'er. The range is also extended and using the smart charger, I don't have to worry about unplugging it right away after it's fully charged. The convenience alone is worth the cost of the parts (aside from the battery which was reused from another project).

Having rused this battery for the Sharper Image scooter upgrade project was an awesome decision.

And the boost on this thing is insane! Overvolting to the 36v setup and pretty much swapping everything for new gear with the exception of the motor) has turned this thing into a monster. It's pretty ridiculously fast for a mini scoot. No longer am I crossing my fingers hoping no one mugs me for it. This thing flies now! I haven't raced anyone on foot and don't hope to anytime soon other than w/friends just to test it out, but I'm fairly certain this machine is going 18-20 mph now - that's up from the 12mph max when it was stock.

Despite her being a bit scared, I was able to talk my wife into trying it out. The pre-ride talk with all the warnings I gave her and tips on leaning forward only freaked her out more. Just before take off, she says, "I don't want to do this anymore."

"You can do it! You'll love it," I shouted back while seated on my Catrike Speed waiting for her.

Although she finally went off and running after a bit of encouragement (aka friendly yelling), she didn't go much faster than the top speed before the mod (12mph). Maybe next time we'll strap on a helmet, gloves, knee pads, elbow pads and wrist guards for a ride over rubber flooring and she just might hit top speed.

There'es so much torque going on in the back that this thing just goes out of control if you're not careful. It's shot out from underneath me pulling a wheelie twice already. Leaning forward on this before rolling the throttle back from a stop really is a "must-do," as far as riding this goes. Loving every moment still. Can't wait to ride it again today. I'll find some excuse or errand to run in order to get this thing out around the block again.
#5665
If you've read this far, you deserve some eye candy. Thanks again Mr. Spiderman for the help. This is the scoot in action BEFORE the mod. I'll be working on one of the scoot AFTER the mod shortly.

http://youtu.be/dwBNZ0LoXIo
#5727
Yeah, when I pull it out, almost 100% of the time people laugh. It's not that funny to me, but I guess it's fairly goofy. Last time I used it, a group of people said in unison, "Camera on a stick!" and I guess that's what I call it now. Very useful for getting cool angles.
User avatar
By kmxtornado
#5731
I asked about belts earlier. For anyone who wants to use this thread as reference, I got the 585-3M-15 and it's a perfect match! http://www.worldbelting.com/products/gates-585-3m-15. Shipping was quick too. Huge box for a single belt. Not sure why they didn't use a smaller package. No complaints though.
#5735
kmxtornado wrote:Yeah, when I pull it out, almost 100% of the time people laugh. It's not that funny to me, but I guess it's fairly goofy. Last time I used it, a group of people said in unison, "Camera on a stick!" and I guess that's what I call it now. Very useful for getting cool angles.


couldn't look any goofier than my ziptied helmet cam. I don't ride in public with that one.
Voltage boost 24 -> 36v on the fly

Nah, thought about running another controller and […]

Here is part of my collection. :) https://i&[…]

Going to be awesome! Keep us posted.