Need new motors? break a chain? brakes not work? swapping out pinions or sprockets?

Moderators: robnewyork, bassiclyLouDog, gameboy

By SpaceKaseJase
#31726
Last year, a guy sold me three non-working Bladez electric scooters (two 450s and an XTR, I think). My first scooter upgrade was a successful one which involved turning a Razor E300 to a 36v scooter with upgraded 800w motor and controller. It goes about 18 mph using three 9A SLAs.

I want to go much faster this time using one of the Bladez frames. Each scooter has a working 450w motor, drivetrain, and brakes (though I'm only interested in upgrading one scooter). Electronics are shot. I have about $500 to work with (hopefully less) and I would like the scooter to go at least 25 mph (I've lost considerable weight this year, so that should help me get more speed, lol).

I definitely want to go lipo this time, but it's the motor and controller I need advice on (also lipo, but I guess that's a different topic). I want to use the stock gear and chain if possible. Should I just try to overvolt the existing 24v motor, or try a brushless? I'd like to go brushless, but I think the inrunner ones are too big for the footprint of the frame, and there are so many outrunners out there, I wouldn't know what to look for. I also have not seen anyone try using a brushless inrunner with this frame. If the brushless motor, controller, batteries, and charger are going to run me over $500, I guess my best bet is to overvolt the existing motor. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how long those will last. Any advice would be most appreciated.

User avatar
By zen_racer
#31727
how much do you weigh, and how hilly is the area you're riding? 25MPH minimum might be do-able on the stock motor but depending on the answers to those questions that speed might not be sustainable.

i have the xtreme x500 and also the rhino scooters which i can use as reference. both scooters have very similar frames to the bladez. the x500 is running a 36v 500w brushed motor overvolted to 48v and i've changed the gearing for more torque. that one tops at just under 20MPH.

the rhino has a 48v 1000w motor which i've powered with lipos and SLAs. max speed at 48v is 23MPH and range is maybe 6 miles. with lipos max speed is a few miles slower if i use a 12s pack.

so to get 25MPH from a 24v 450w motor you'd have to run it at 48v SLA or 44.4v lipo but you'd run the risk of overheating the motor and possibly the controller too.

if you have fabrication skills then an inrunner or outrunner might cost a few bucks less, but depending on your stock motor mount i'd go with a BLDC designed for scooters rather than the RC motors...

a 48v BLDC setup geared for your target speed would be my pick.
By SpaceKaseJase
#31728
Thanks for the response, Zen. I weigh about 180 lbs, and my area is fairly flat. I figure overvolting the stock would burn it up pretty quickly, but I did see a guy on YouTube overvolt his Maxxus Xtreme with what seems to be a similar motor as the stock 450 I have. Said it goes 25-30 mph. As for the motor, I assume I should shy away from HobbyKing, and perhaps look at Alien Power Systems? I just don't know which one to get. Don't have much fab skills, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to fab a motor mount. Btw, is your rhino motor brushless? Where did you get it?
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31729
do you have the 3 bolt currie-type motor, or the 4 bolt pattern like on the unites? if you have the 4 bolt i'd get something like this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1500W-4 ... autifyAB=0

i have the same motor but with a base mount. it's going into a razor dune buggy. i've seen a few posts here and other forums with builds using this motor in the razor mx650. the matching controllers are easy to find too. if you go this route i think you'll meet your stated goals and stay under budget.

if you have the 3 bolt pattern there are brushless motors available but harder to source, i'm thinking the old kollmorgens like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KOLLMORGEN-24V ... Swa3BaEKr-

if you match up bolt patterns the motor swap will be super easy. i own a few of these kollmorgens but picked them up awhile back at a lower price. there are posts online where ppl are running these at 36v with great results... if you're able to set it up at 36v i think i'll handle your weight and get you to speed.
By SpaceKaseJase
#31730
Mine is a 3-bolt pattern. Will look into the kollmorgens. I cant imagine it being too difficult to fabricate a plate for 4-bolts though. Though the 4-bolt 48v bldc is much cheaper, I assume I'll be paying more for lipo batteries and charger than the Kollmorgen, right? And btw, my scooter does not have the Currie type.motor, but this one:

https://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24vo450wamof.html
Last edited by SpaceKaseJase on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31732
ok i dont have any experience with those older motors but have heard they are more robust than the Unites...might be worth testing it out at 36v?

i checked out your E300 post, so i dont think it'd be too hard to fab up a mounting plate w the resources you have. also noticed your name in the pics... crazy that i'd find another j coronado who likes to modify electric scooters too LOL

forgot to answer your earlier question - the rhino is running a 1000w Unite brushed motor:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2964

what type of lipos were you checking out, ready to go packs or building a pack yourself?
By SpaceKaseJase
#31735
That is unusual since Coronado is not a common last name. I definitely want to try the 48v motor. The dimensions seem pretty close to the brackets I already have. With shipping, the motor is pretty expensive though. Wish there was a cheaper option. Since I don't want to set myself on fire, I'll go with rtg lipo packs like Turnigy or Multistar.
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31736
its worth shopping around since these motors are showing up on more sites:

http://www.hyperpowersports.com/categor ... rness.html

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors48volt.html

i actually bought my motor from hyperpowersports and matched it to a controlleri bought from aliexpress. i wired them up using the diagram from the ESP site lol.

the motor combos seem to have increased in pricing over the past few mos, dont know if thats related to the tariff war with China
By SpaceKaseJase
#31738
I like your idea re getting motor from electricscooterparts and a controller from aliexpress. Those combos are way expensive! Good point re tariff war. Maybe I should hold off awhile before making a purchase. Thankfully, I'm in no hurry.
By SpaceKaseJase
#31741
Not getting any responses in the battery/electrical forum, so I'll ask here. Assuming I go with that 48v motor from Aliexpress, what I need now is advice on controller, lipos, and charger. There's so much info out there, it's dizzying. Looking for inexpensive way to get 48v (44v) lipo setup. Not sure about amps. Wdyt?
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31743
i bought the multistars awhile back after guys were reporting good results with them. i've had no issues with mine either, no swelling no bad cells, knock on wood...

i think there are 3 options for lithium batts in our application:

1. RC lipos like the multistars, turnigy, and higher end brands
2. pre-built lithium packs, either in various hard case shapes or blue shrink wrap
3. DIY packs generally assembled with 18650 lithium batteries same as in the pre-built packs

i chose the RC route because of pricing and flexibility - one thing to keep in mind is if you go this route you should factor in the cost for good RC chargers. the cheap ones may not last and may not be accurate. you'll also need to factor in the cost of wiring harnesses and respective connectors.

pre-built has a higher initial cost, but if you buy a pack with built in BMS and balancing logic then it'll be easy maintenance and you won't need a RC charger, just a matched voltage lithium charger which can be found cheap online.
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31746
between $30 to $100 should get a decent charger. i'd stay away from the B6 lower ends, mine didnt last long.

i've been using the Turnigy Accucel-6 50w and so far so good, bought on the HK sale for $9:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/batteries/b ... rgers.html

i have the Turnigy Reaktor 300w which is still holding up well, bought at HK sale for $62

also have the iCharger i106B, think i paid $100 on amazon. all 3 chargers were purchased a few years ago so i think the same features can be found on lower priced newer models...

you'll also need to budget for the cost of a power supply unit. i power all 3 chargers at the same time using a modified HP PSU. its rated for industrial use, fan-cooled, and much cheaper than PSUs designed for RC chargers.
By SpaceKaseJase
#31747
So if I purchase two 6s packs at 5200 mah, I would need a charger for each pack if I wanted to charge them at the same time, right? Or can one charger handle both packs at the same time if configured properly?
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31750
you can get by with one charger and a paraboard if you want to charge identical packs at the same time:

http://www.buddyrc.com/paraboard-v2-xh-xt60.html

you'd need a higher wattage charger if you want to charge multiple packs at their C rating; otherwise the recharge process will take longer.

i have multiple chargers because i charge different types of lipo packs at the same time. and i also like to have a backup in case a charger stops working...
By SpaceKaseJase
#31751
Ok, that makes sense. The packs I'm interested in are identical. My last query involves longevity as it pertains to amperage. How can I figure out how long 5200 mah will last (again, referring to the two lipo packs I linked)?
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By zen_racer
#31752
alot of variables there so harder to predict how long it'll last... you'd want to look at the max current rating on the controller and the rated current draw for the motor. do you plan on riding mostly WOT pulling max current for most of the trip?

then you also need to consider LVC for the lipos... that tends to be a personal preference. i think the common recommendation is 3.0v. on my pack i run lipo buzzers for each battery set to alarm at 3.6v which is conservative.
By SpaceKaseJase
#31753
I think WOT would be too dangerous for me, so I don't expect to do it that much. When looking at max current rating on the controller comparing it to rated current draw for the motor, what should I be looking for?
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31754
the controller current rating sets the max limit for how much amps it'll push; let's say the BOMA motor is rated for 35a. you want a controller rated for at least 35a, higher if available.

the more amps the controller passes to the motor, the more torque. there is no limit to how much the current the motor will draw, which is the reason why you protect the controller with a fuse rated the same as the controller's max current.

which brings us to the batts mAh... for reference, i've run 10S 8000mAh lipos powering a 24V 350W brushed motor. at 24v its rated at 19.2A. i was overvolting the motor using a 36v controller rated for 33A max current, with a 40A fuse.

running at WOT i was probably pulling over 30A for more than 10sec. with that type of current draw my lipo buzzers would go off in under 10min of riding
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31756
these are for monitoring voltage only, to protect from over discharge:

http://www.buddyrc.com/digital-voltage- ... alarm.html

it varies but the general recommendation is not to drain lipos below 3.0v - 3.3v. going below that could damage the cell or cause the battery to ignite.

when i'm testing a build powered by lipos, i always have a buzzer connected to each pack with LVC alarm set to 3.6v

after i get some time on the build and have an idea of how much power is being used, i might take the buzzers off...
By SpaceKaseJase
#31768
So I'm getting ready to purchase that 48v brushless motor from aliexpress. Do I need to install hall sensors on it or does it come with them already? Are there controllers that would negate the use of hall sensors? Thanks again.
User avatar
By zen_racer
#31769
the motor has sensors built in. looking at the motor in the link you provided, you'll need a BLDC controller that meets the current requirements for your motor and has matching connections, in this case 3 terminal connector for the phase leads and 5 terminal connector for the sensor leads.

you can ask the seller for their recommendation and use that to shop for similar spec'd controller. the leads that i mentioned are detailed in this diagram:

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/hoo ... 00BLDC.pdf

unless you find a controller with matching connectors to your motor be prepared to modify these leads with your preferred connectors. i had to do that with the phase leads from the controller i bought - i cut off the spade terminals and replaced them with ring terminals, to match the motor leads which came with ring terminals
By SpaceKaseJase
#31772
I really appreciate all your advice. Looks like with the 48v boma, controller, lipos, charger, and accessories, I'm going to be over budget. Plan B is to overvolt the already existing 24v 450w motor--of which I have three.

Someone advised I parallel a 6s and 4s pack to get that voltage. But wouldn't paralleling increase amps and not volts? Still researching the right combo. I also understand this motor can handle up to 44.4v. Wdyt? Sorry for switching on ya.
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By zen_racer
#31773
glad to help - its hard to predict how those motors will handle overvolting. without know the rated RPM i'm guessing 25MPH would be do-able with the right gearing at 36v, giving up torque in the process. running that motor at 48v 25MPH would be easier to achieve but at greater risk of smoking the motor... but since you have three motors i guess there's room for error?

did they mean series connect? packs with different voltage ratings can't be parallel connected. as you noted two 6s packs can be paralleled to increase capacity, one 6s pack can be series connected to a 4s pack to increase voltage to 10s with no increase in capacity...
By SpaceKaseJase
#31774
Yeah, I've been doing a TON of research re lipos, and now have a pretty good handle on what my options are. Only thing I have left to research is charging, but I'll figure that out when I decide what lipos to get.

So I used my 36v controller and SLA setup from my E300 and connected to the 24v motor on my Bladez. One motor got really hot after a few min of WOT, and the other got pretty warm, but not as much. Ealier this year I took apart all 3 Bladez motors to clean them out and messed up the tension on the brushes. I think that's why one gets warmer than the other. The 3rd motor had a displaced and cracked magnet that I repaired but haven't tested it at 36v yet. I now know how to adjust the brush tension, so some more tinkering is needed.

Still, I think I should go with the 48v Boma motor you suggested, even though it will cost my left you-know-what to get everything I'll need to run it. Hobbyking's lipo selection sucks right now, and they don't always advertise the correct prices on their website. I'm just going to have to play the waiting game and see if any better sales on lipos come up--maybe even a price drop for that Boma motor. I'm patient.
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By zen_racer
#31775
too bad about the heat was hoping those older motors were more robust than the new stuff. if you plan on carrying out some road tests there are relatively cheap e-meters that you can wire inline. i use a model that takes a heat sensor, which i attach directly to the motor can... highly optional but i like seeing numbers lol

i monitor HK's sales for multistars, right now i see they have the high capacity 6s packs at discount. a few weeks ago they had the LiHV multistars on sale but i'm good on batteries right now.

another power option to consider is li-ion which costs slightly more than multistars but with added benefit of ease of use and no additional cost for a charger:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18650-48V-10AH ... 8v+li.TRS0

these pre-built li-ion packs come in a wide selection of voltage and capacity... match one up to the motor and you'll have a plug & play setup with less fabrication and recharge hassles.

one thing to keep track of is this escalating trade war because just about everything in this scooter hobby is manufactured there...
By SpaceKaseJase
#31776
I think the biggest reason for waiting is the trade war. The price of the Boma is reasonable, but shipping is horrendous! Hopefully this will get resolved soon as it did with the EU.

That battery suggestion isn't too bad, but it looks a little too big for the chassis. Price-wise, it seems on par with cheaper lipos plus accessories.
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