Need new motors? break a chain? brakes not work? swapping out pinions or sprockets?

Moderators: robnewyork, bassiclyLouDog, gameboy

By toycrusher
#24829
I picked one up if craigslist and I'm trying to give it a bit better acceleration. It has an 11t motor sprocket and I would like to go down to 9t by I can't find one anywhere! All the #25 9t sprockets I find are for 8mm D-bore and these razor motors are 10mm D-bore.

I guess I can leave this on the same thread, how can you determine power of my1016 motors? I have 4 or 5 laying around but I have no way to identify them it seems. They all have 11t sprockets


By codeman
#24831
I don't think that there is a 9T #25 for the 10mm shaft. Seems like I recall reading a post by someone that bought the 9T 8mm in hopes of grinding it to work on a 10mm and if I recall it did not work well. It was binding against the motor shaft. What about the sprocket at the wheels? Can you fit a larger one there? If it is mounted to an axle adapter you can buy a plate sprocket and drill the mounting holes in it. I have bought quite a few plate sprockets from VEX.

I can't help with the motor identification. My guess is that they are all the same and just have different ratings.
By toycrusher
#24837
robnewyork wrote:it will fit, the shaft is 10mm, but the d bore or dd bore is only 8mm in most sub 500 watt unites.
Interesting. I ordered a 9t 10mm sprocket from tncscooters and it fit the motor but I stupidly didn't pay attention that it was bike chain, not #25.

Is the 8mm actually 10 and they are just labeled wrong? I'm not sure I want to try dremeling a D bore. I can definitely put a bigger sprocket on the axle, it's just there is so little clearance on the ground force drifter I didn't want the chain any closer to the ground than it already is.
User avatar
By zen_racer
#24840
have seen alot of variance w/ the sub-500w Unites, new and old. i believe there are batches of 200/250w my1016 which are spec'd w the 8mm shaft and 9 or 10t spocket:

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... er-36.html

you may already be aware that quite a few parts on ESP have inaccurate specs. there are a bunch of varying my1016's piled up in the garage. including a zy1016, all have the 10mm shaft. to date i've been unable to locate anything smaller than 11t to fit on the 10mm shaft (8mm flat i think).

my solution to this issue on the my1016 are the smaller bracket-mount curries:

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24-v ... urrie.html

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/24v- ... urrie.html

diff type of sprocket than the my1016's so 9t is available in 25#
By toycrusher
#24873
TNC couldn't come up with a 9t 10mm sprocket so they are accepting my return. No big deal, I'll just swap the axle sprocket for a larger one. And now the debate, looking for your experiences.

The Ground Force Drifter is rated for 140 lbs... I'm 175 on a good day and not likely to get much lighter anytime soon :? :roll:

Currently it has (I'm assuming it's original) a 250w MY1016 with an 11 pitch sprocket and a 34t sprocket on the axle. I have to kind of kick start it to get going and 5 minutes of riding and it begins noticeably losing power. My son (age 5) can ride it almost indefinitely without an issue, but C'mon, this things for me! :roll:

Rough plan, go from 34t to 42t axle sprocket. 3.09:1 ratio up to 3.82 ratio, 19% better gearing, loss of 2-3 mph in speed. I can then overvolt it to 36v to gain back the 2-3 mph. I'm aware I'll need to monitor voltage manually.


Other option, I have a 36v 350 watt MY1016. If I swap motors, and upgrade to 36v, I'll (hopefully) have my startup torque without messing with gearing, but just how long will my little 7ah batteries last pushing the 36v 350w motor compared to the 250w motor overvolted to 36?
By codeman
#24875
It is current to the motor that produces torque. So if you have a 25A controller now on the 250W motor and do not change the controller then the 350W motor will get the same amount of current and thus have the same torque output. Lowering the gear ratio for mechanical advantage and then overvolting will work great for a while. I did that with my sons Razor Quad because he is heavy. I gained 13% torque mechanically and I could feel the difference. I did not change the controller so I did not get any extra torque from the motor. It eventually burned up the 350W motor though.

Also checking the math going from 3.09:1 to 3.82:1 and then overvolting (increasing motor rpm by 50%) you will actually gain top speed. I calculate it will go 2.133mph faster.
By robnewyork
#24876
The sky is the limit all depends on budget.. Plus u will have to boot the new sprocket to the old one seeing as how no one makes 20 mm bore 25 pitch sprockets..I'd go for way more power . ur mod is unds fun for a kid not for an adult at all.
By toycrusher
#24879
robnewyork wrote:The sky is the limit all depends on budget.. Plus u will have to boot the new sprocket to the old one seeing as how no one makes 20 mm bore 25 pitch sprockets..I'd go for way more power . ur mod is unds fun for a kid not for an adult at all.
Oooh... I didn't break out my caliper but eyeballing it, it seemed a hair over 3/4"... and at 20mm, It would be :x
By toycrusher
#24880
Also checking the math going from 3.09:1 to 3.82:1 and then overvolting (increasing motor rpm by 50%) you will actually gain top speed. I calculate it will go 2.133mph faster.
I'm used to overvolting powerwheels for my kids and 50% voltage increase usually = about 35% speed increase. 100% increase in voltage tends to give about 65 - 70% increase in speed. I was assuming these MY1016s were similar.
By codeman
#24881
Well the motor rpm is proportional to the voltage supplied. If you increase the voltage to the motor by 50% it will spin 50% faster. So instead of 3000rpm it will turn 4500rpm.
By robnewyork
#24882
hence you need to think bigger and save some sweat look up my dual motor dual controller ground force with 10inch harbor wheels, too much work for the return..aside from industrial which takes practice id get a 36 v 1000 watt unite(, get the right sprocket it comes 8 mm pitch) in 11 tooth or 12, then id get 3 18ah batteries for 100 shipped off ebay and the yk43b controller which comes with throttle..then a 36 charger wired right to battery pack .. top speed will be the same roughly but u will break ur neck when u hit the throttle.id actually do the 36v unite on 48v and get matching charger.. 15 mph brutal torque.does it take some skill yea, but so does a unite 350 runnig 36v :D
By robnewyork
#24883
price breakdown
100 batteries
140 motor
40 controller
30 charger
$9 sprocket
theres cheaper ways to go fast but far more fabrication ask codeman or maurtis or aiden

going back id convert it all to 35 chain like codeman did
By toycrusher
#24885
robnewyork wrote:price breakdown
100 batteries
140 motor
40 controller
30 charger
$9 sprocket
theres cheaper ways to go fast but far more fabrication ask codeman or maurtis or aiden

going back id convert it all to 35 chain like codeman did
I take it you can get 20mm bore #35 sprockets?
By toycrusher
#24889
Ok, I tried swapping to the 36v my1016 but it's too long and hits the batteries. I'm going to have to fab up a battery tray to move the batteries. Do I move them behind the axle? Do I raise the seat and mount them under?
By codeman
#24890
M Razor buggies have a 20mm shaft. When I switched them to #35 sprockets, because the #25 chain was stretching, I had to buy 3/4" bore hub sprockets from surplus center and I purchased a 20mm drill bit on ebay and used a drill press to bore them out. boring them from 0.75 to 0.787 reduced the keyway depth but it actually worked perfectly because the metric keyway on the axle is deeper than the 3/16" keyway on the sprocket and the differences perfectly offset each other and it fit great. Boring them is not hard with a drill press. Don't try it without one.
By toycrusher
#24891
codeman wrote:M Razor buggies have a 20mm shaft. When I switched them to #35 sprockets, because the #25 chain was stretching, I had to buy 3/4" bore hub sprockets from surplus center and I purchased a 20mm drill bit on ebay and used a drill press to bore them out. boring them from 0.75 to 0.787 reduced the keyway depth but it actually worked perfectly because the metric keyway on the axle is deeper than the 3/16" keyway on the sprocket and the differences perfectly offset each other and it fit great. Boring them is not hard with a drill press. Don't try it without one.
Gotcha!
By toycrusher
#24901
Quinc wrote:Upgrade to a 750 or 1000watt motor and controller and call it a day. 8-)
I'd love to but at this point I need to somehow justify that the mods are for my 5 year old son. Me being able to use it too has to be pure coincidence... :twisted: :roll:
By Quinc
#24902
toycrusher wrote:
Quinc wrote:Upgrade to a 750 or 1000watt motor and controller and call it a day. 8-)
I'd love to but at this point I need to somehow justify that the mods are for my 5 year old son. Me being able to use it too has to be pure coincidence... :twisted: :roll:
Speed will be the same. Just a lot more torque. And this way he can climb little hills etc with it. Or better yet! Get your wife to ride it! :D
By toycrusher
#24903
Quinc wrote:
toycrusher wrote:
Quinc wrote:Upgrade to a 750 or 1000watt motor and controller and call it a day. 8-)
I'd love to but at this point I need to somehow justify that the mods are for my 5 year old son. Me being able to use it too has to be pure coincidence... :twisted: :roll:
Speed will be the same. Just a lot more torque. And this way he can climb little hills etc with it. Or better yet! Get your wife to ride it! :D
I'm not saying no to that just yet. But an even longer motor still pushes me into the battery relocation issue. I'd much prefer to stay SLA instead of lipo-based batteries. Where are people putting them?
By toycrusher
#24910
Getting off Subject... is there much point to bypassing the amp limiter in the stock controller? I have 24 and 36v yk31s laying around that I use on power wheels. Will I gain anything swapping to one?
By toycrusher
#24934
robnewyork wrote:no just get a real controller( above 40 amps
What controller do you recommend? I'm just looking for a little burnout when mashing the gas from a standstill. I hammered out the battery tray, turned the batteries 90* for more motor clearence, swapped in the 350 watt 36v motor, and punched a jumper wire out through the battery cover to allow it to be swapped between 24v and 36v relatively easily.

Test ride unfortunately was not significantly different than the 250w motor on 24v. Still a slow start although speed ramped up quicker once the cart was moving. I'm curious if the current limiter in the stock controller is killing my fun or if burnouts just aren't possible with a 350w motor.
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By codeman
#24938
Yes current or amps amounts to torque. If you increase the controller current to more than 30A you will get a lot more torque from the stock motor for a short time but it will eventually burn it up.
By toycrusher
#24939
codeman wrote:Yes current or amps amounts to torque. If you increase the controller current to more than 30A you will get a lot more torque from the stock motor for a short time but it will eventually burn it up.
I've upped it from 250w 24v to a 350w 36v motor. Technically that's only 10 amp draw. How would your force feed it more amps? Won't it only draw what it wants to?
By codeman
#24941
You are correct that Power = Voltage X Current. However there is more to it then just the power equation. A brushed DC motor is essentially a short circuit at 0 rpm. As the rpm starts to increase the resistance increases and the current will drop. So the motor pulls maximum current at 0rpm. As I said before the current produces the torque because it is used to produce a magnetic field so the higher the current the stronger the magnetic field. So based on this you can see that maximum torque also occurs at 0 rpm. The purpose of the motor speed control is:

1. To provide a variable throttle.
2. To protect the motor.

The first one is obvious. The second is not. The speed controller has a current limter in it. Without the current limiter your motor would pull hundreds or amps when starting under load. Pulling hundreds of amps for a second or so each time it starts will fry the motor pretty fast.

Because of this I am not surprised that you didn't see any difference in performance. you are supplying the same current at startup so you should see about the same torque. A 30A stock controller is used on the 350W motor. I am not sure if it is lower for the 250W. These motors are not great motors. They will die if you abuse them. You can put a higher current controller on them but the motor will eventually die.
By robnewyork
#24943
U need a large motor ayk43 b and 3 or more large batteries to really feel any grunt with an adult.1000 watt unite is 140 yk43 b is 40 and 3 18 ah batteries is another 105 plus u need to custom mount that motor..
By toycrusher
#24946
I have to recant my previous statement. I finally got it out on the road and it's significantly improved! :D I used to have to push start my fat butt to get it rolling and now it takes off on it's own with excellent "mid-range" torque. Top speed is probably about the same, which is perfectly adequate for a driving position with your knees up to your chest. Speaking of... I should probably invest in a helmet... :roll:

As far as doing burnouts, yeah, I believe you. These little motors will never be able to do it. Those 1000w unites aren't priced too bad, about $90 but I'm not sure I want to go 48v.

Has anyone tried one of these cheap ESCs? They use a Pot instead of hall effect sensor, but it would seem a hall effect sensor would work anyway. They are rated 40 amp though that may be too much for the little MY1060 I have?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/301812878002?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
Image
By codeman
#24947
You would notice a difference at 40A instead of 30A. Would the motor last? Not forever. Can you make this work with the hall effect sensor? Possibly. The hall effect sensor require 5V. If the power sent to the pot is 5V then yes it should work fine. Notice how the pot has two connectors. I suspect the two pin is power and the three pin is the pot itself. So if you get one and it supplies 5V then you can power the hall effect sensor with that and then I suspect that you can add the third hall effect wire to the center tap of the pot. You may also need to jump one side of the pot to ground if it is not already. Also the bundle of wires on the ground force has at least 5 wires. Two of them are for the battery status indicator. You will lose that function.
By toycrusher
#24948
Since I've gone up to 36v the battery indicator is useless anyway. I would need a main power relay (for on/off) as well as a brake relay. I am still a bit confused on the 5 wires to the pot. I'm used to only seeing 3 (or 2) and the 3 swaps directly to a hall effect sensor. Would the extra 2 wires really just be extra power and ground?
By toycrusher
#24955
robnewyork wrote:Why opt for this controller anyway..it just doubles the workload. Kelly makes 24-36 v 50 amp programmable controllers for 50 bux.
Other than being more efficient, what does the $50 Kelly offer? You still need a key switch, main power relay, brake switch, brake relay, charger wiring, etc.

I've done three 36v power wheels builds and each time I considered the Kelly but went with the significantly cheaper yk31c's. Other than the low voltage protection, what makes the Kelly superior for simple vehicles like this?
By codeman
#24956
Yes the two pin connector has a black wire and a red wire. The red wire ties together with the red wire on the pot and the other three pin connector. The black wire ties to the yellow wire in the other connector and to the pot. There is essentially only 3 wires. I suspect that the two pin supplies a voltage across the pot. If it is 5V you are in good shape.
By robnewyork
#24963
toycrusher wrote:
robnewyork wrote:Why opt for this controller anyway..it just doubles the workload. Kelly makes 24-36 v 50 amp programmable controllers for 50 bux.
Other than being more efficient, what does the $50 Kelly offer? You still need a key switch, main power relay, brake switch, brake relay, charger wiring, etc.

I've done three 36v power wheels builds and each time I considered the Kelly but went with the significantly cheaper yk31c's. Other than the low voltage protection, what makes the Kelly superior for simple vehicles like this?
Brake switch and relay? Unless you are three u should understand to get off the gas when braking..no offense if the kid is three.. Umm its programmability, it offers variable amps , selectable lvc and has hall or pot throttle ability..personally I think a good start is a better motor .. Or spend 40 bux hook up yk43b in an hour and hope the motor lives.. Run time will be 15 mins with 7 ah but bigger batteries are always an eventuality
By robnewyork
#24964
All I'm saying is you are perhaps overcomplicating a simple task.. Make a razor vehicle faster.. At the end end of the day the highest dependable wattage possible is always the answer and thats irrefutable.. I'm not against experiments had you built 10 razor karts but being the first I'd keep it simple with the tried and true.. Big batteries, more amps and big motor.
By toycrusher
#24967
My son is five and just transitioning from Power Wheels with scooter controllers running in the 10 to 11 mile per hour range. He's not quite strong enough for the mechanical brake so the plan was to use a brake relay too short the motor for instant stopping and quicker spinouts. I appreciate the insights. I mod everything I own, but I hadn't tried moving something as heavy as myself with these electric motors yet
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