Need new motors? break a chain? brakes not work? swapping out pinions or sprockets?

Moderators: robnewyork, bassiclyLouDog, gameboy

#28342
Iworktofish wrote:Neither buddy. Been fishing for salmon, trout & steelhead on the rivers & shores of Lake Michigan on and off since 1980. Lately the hobby has taken a back seat to other hobbies.
very cool, been an avid fresh/saltwater angler for almost 30yrs... havent given it up either but this hobby has most of my free time now lol
#28344
Rob, I guess I'll have to look into lipos, tally a list of costs involved and the process of charging them. It sounds like if I want both fun and run time, this might be worth the investment
zen_racer wrote: very cool, been an avid fresh/saltwater angler for almost 30yrs... havent given it up either but this hobby has most of my free time now lol
Nice! The long walk back to the car from the end of the pier in Milwaukee with 20-100lbs of salmon + gear at 3am was always killer. I contemplated using the dune buggy one of these times LOL. And I aways wanted to move to FL and take up saltwater fishing, but never made it happen.
#28347
robnewyork wrote:for now id just run the 15ah , see how it runs, if it stays cool maybe go 48v .
great plan. Side question...I have 4 of these batteries on #2 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301112853936
and 3 of these batteries on #1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mighty-Max-3-Pa ... 1212505106?

I believe the rule of thumb is you don't mix batteries. Would that apply in this case, or are these similar enough to not matter?

Motor, sprockets, chain, links all ordered. Only hard part will be mounting that big motor. Hope to have it all done by Wednesday.
#28352
so the specs list this detail:

Output voltage: DC 12.6~10.8V; Output current: 2A

Suitable for wireless camera, CCTV camera, IR detector, car TV, GPS tracker, medcine equipment, LED light, portable DVD, PDA, walkie talkie, digital camera, portable camera, bluetooth devices, CD player, MD player, MP3, smart card, etc.

2a is nowhere close to the output you'd need to run any electric ride-on. i dont see "cell balancing" listed in the specs either, so this would be potentially dangerous to use in our hobby.

the lithium pack i linked earlier... note the specs on this pack:

http://www.hyperpowersports.com/product ... arger.html

Maximum Continuous BMS Limited Current (A) 30A

Maximum Instananeous BMS Limited Current (A) 130A
#28363
That thing is huge. Looks like an IED.

I drove around today for 10min on the 900w Currie at 36v still with the YK43B. I used a 40a fuse to join the female connectors and popped it as soon as I hit the throttle so I crimped it. Top speed dropped from 17 to 14, but enough torque that donuts in the grass is fun. Motor was warm after 10min vs fry an egg before.

I see what you mean about the YK43b...it sends a lot of current. I'll probably order that Kelly controller you suggested for this setup. This one, correct? http://kellycontroller.com/kds48100e100 ... p-285.html

I'm still tempted to try the YK43B with that Ohio industrial motor you suggested which arrives Wednesday. Unless you are strong against it? Then I'll get 2 of those Kelly's, or a YK42-4? I'd like to try 36v first, then 48v.
#28364
the yk43b should be fine with the industrial.. i dont even think it will get hot ...(or warm) the kelly u listed for the 900 watt currie should be ideal. u can dial it in on ur laptop.. im pretty sure that will need this to program it , they are available at some best buys also
http://kellycontroller.com/kelly-rs232- ... p-291.html

just start at 36v yk43b for the industrial.. i know the mx500 post i linked u is going to 60v but the yk42-4 is literally 1/3rd the amperage of the yk43b.
#28365
the beauty of the average size industrials (1/3rd hp to 1hp) is they generally handle the yk43b making a very fast and quite cheap combo thats durable ..With the bigger industrials like the one i have now (2.5hp clarke 36v 100 amp nominal) the yk43 b really doesnt use any of the potential power with 196amps or so..And that opens the doors to the 300 plus amp kellys and curtis' if and when i do a build with the 2.5hp i plan on getting the 550amp kelly to run it.The issue with the yk43b is that most unites and curries dont survive it long term , so the niche solution is a kelly where you can adjust the power , test, adjust again and find that sweet spot of power vs heat. Tha has fine tuned his scooter with a kelly and a unite motor and has made quite a beast without risking blowing the motor. Back when I first saw potential in industrial motors i simply figured if I scour ebay enough i can get them cheaper than a unitee motor of equal wattage.. But hadnt figured out the amperage aspect. So trial and errror with different controllers knowing the yk43 was notorious for smoking motors.Once i discovered the durability and reliable acceleration it took off from there.. the first complete industrial build was this.

Imagepocket mod as of 11-3-13 by murphyrobert9, on Flickr

and really since then as far as a motor controller combo as fast and as cheap hasnt really come to light. its not even close. as i recall that 1hp leeson was 43 shipped , and the yk43b has always been about 40-50 bux.
#28366
matter of fact shortly before the pocket mod build i slapped this together with the yk42-4 and about 72 volts.. it had the motor that was later used in the pocket mod.. this was a death trap and almost killed my friend when the controller fried in the wide open throttle position.

Imagee200 death machine by murphyrobert9, on Flickr
we did some test runs and kept upping the voltage.. finally it hit a sweet spot and took off like a rocket. Thank god i told andrew to put on his helmet because it was like a bucking bronco trying to get rolled out from 0-5 mph , after that it was great.. He flew down the block as i watched and I was terrified when he blew a stop sign in queens nyc doing 30 plus mph.. I observed the fact he was still accelerating and couldnt imagine what he was thinking.. Then the upright scooter was gone ..He had ditched at what he belives to be 40 mph (which the math suggested was true as per gearing ) .. When cars left him no choice he tucked and rolled , put a serious dent in the dot helmet and skinned his whole body.I was estatic as i headed torward where id last seen him to see him walking the scooter back in my direction.We had not installed any emergency cutoff and although he tried kicking wires loose and putting his foot on the back wheeel to slow down he was unsucessful.So theres the real start of the industrial revolution lol! and no i dont take full credit, a few indutrials had been used prior but moreso as a unite replacement , certainly no one was doing over 25 mph one , and ive only seen one build in the archives of the forum
#28367
wow, that's pretty scary. I'm wondering if I should put some front mounted kill switch on the dune buggy.

Agreed, a used industrial + a $43 YK43b from China is a bargain...wish I knew better last year when I was buying marked up garbage from the US shops. Unfortunately now, time is a factor.

I'm liking that kelly controller, but looking at the wiring diagram last night, not nearly as simple as the YK43b. I'm not understanding the key switch, precharge resistor, and relay needed, according to pg11 http://kellycontroller.com/mot/download ... Manual.pdf.

Can't I just wire directly from battery to controller, using a battery disconnect, and push button circuit breaker?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-70-Amp-Heav ... SwGvhT8l-t
#28368
yea,,.,. these diagrams usually reflect whats needed in a higher amp controller setup;. u can run it as needed with an on off switch and thats basically it.. now if u wanna dd a precharge resistor in a week heres what u need.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231704110492?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

wire this across the two terminals of the on off switch making a full circuit permanent.. th on off switch will still act as a switch.. and cut off the major power.. the precharge resistor will simple trickle a tiny amount of juice to the capacitors so u dont get a cold start when turning on the controller. pretty simple. wire everything else according to the basics ..
#28389
That industrial motor came in today, and I have 2 new questions:

Maintaining the current sprocket/jackshaft setup, the body of the motor rubs against the shock. I thought I'd have to shorten the shaft, but it actually needs to be longer.

1. What are the implications of bypassing the 1st set of sprockets and going direct to the axle sprocket? I ordered motor sprockets in 14-17-20T and 4ft of chain.

I determined that the old 500w motor is fine, however the controller is burnt, and 1 of the 3 12v/15ah batteries is bad. When I wire direct to the motor from this battery, it does not provide enough current to turn, and voltage goes to 0...the other 2 work fine.

This battery was purchased in July of last year, and this cart has only been used & charged perhaps 1-2 dozen times max and stored in a heated garage. For now, I'll probably use the spare battery from cart #2, but it is new and from different manufacturer, so this is a concern. Also, the fact that I went thru this battery so quickly gives me concern for the long term.

2. So my question now is, instead of spending more money on SLA technology, would I be better off long term just investing in a lithium setup like this? http://www.hyperpowersports.com/product ... arger.html This will be running the industrial motor, so I'm not sure if I should get a 36v or 48v setup. But I just don't like the fact that 1 of 3 SLA's already went bad, and I'm hoping that investing in a superior battery now will be better long term, aside from being lighter, charging faster, longer runtime, and hopefully more durable. I'm thinking that SLA went bad from bouncing around.

3. Do lithium batteries have mounting/position ("this side up") requirements? I store my karts upright when done.

Thoughts on my 3 questions?

Thanks!
#28391
Iworktofish wrote:...would I be better off long term just investing in a lithium setup like this? http://www.hyperpowersports.com/product ... arger.html This will be running the industrial motor
you'll want to match the current draw of the controller with the current rating of the lithium pack. if the controller can pull more amps than the lithium pack can safely discharge, it'll create an expensive and potentially dangerous situation.
robnewyork wrote:none of those will work with a yk43b ..only sla , rc lipo, and headway pack
rob pretty much laid it out... there are different lithium chemistries, some better suited to lower draw applications like an ebike with a brushless hub motor. your link is for li-ion which i would use with a lower draw setup, not industrial paired with yk43b. RC lipos on the other hand esp those with a higher C rating, maybe 30c and higher depending on the pack mAh.
Iworktofish wrote:3. Do lithium batteries have mounting/position ("this side up") requirements?
i dont think so but it may vary from one chemistry to another... li-ion vs lipo vs lifep04 etc. they do have fairly strict requirements for long-term storage. and i wouldnt place them in a location where they're exposed to puncture, etc.
#28392
Thanks Zen. My apologies that I've asked questions that were already addressed. My knowledge with these different battery types is completely non-existent, and now I've just learned that li-ion, lipo, lifep04 are 3 different types, when last week you had just taught me lithium and lipos are not the same LOL.

For some reason, I had it in my mind that the $499 48v 20ah all in one lithium pack and charger was the complete solution to my problems, all except the high cost. Since I do not understand the intricacies of how to build, charge, and what all the components do for a lipos setup, I think that unless someone sells a "turn key" 36-48v 15-20ah solution that also simplifies the charging process, perhaps I'm better off sticking to SLA before I inadvertently make a bomb.

I'm thinking that battery failure was due to vibration. It was the battery sitting on top of the others that failed, and I had no foam to dampen any of them on my 1st build (again, lack of knowledge showing). I did use foam on Dune buggy #2.

Any thoughts on bypassing the 1st set of sprockets, which I believe eliminates the jackshaft? I thought I read of some doing this, and then going back, but I don't recall the reason why. Unfortunately, due to the size of the motor housing, and the shaft length, I'm not sure how I'll mount the motor to utilize the current sprocket setup, without the motor case hitting the shock.

Lastly, here's a video from today. My daughter is enjoying build #2 which has been downgraded to 36v. The motor only gets warm now, but I think I'll still swap out the YK43B for a programmable Kelly for longevity, and tune with sprockets for higher top speed.

#28393
no worries never hurts to ask again just to be sure... headway batteries would be able to build you a custom pack to your specs, the price will be up there but it'll be reasonably safe if you go with lifepo4, will have a battery mgmt system and will be plug and play with a matching charger.

i went the RC lipo route for my projects. i can find great deals on them, and after getting the basics down find that they arent that complicated to wire up or recharge. if you're willing to take on some additional care and handling i think you may find the advantages outweigh the risks.

re: the jackshaft i think you'll lose the additional mechanical torque provided by that gear reduction but since youre going industrial i dont think you'll miss that torque much lol

with you going industrial your build is taking a similar path to maurtis' dune buggy project:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1306&start=50

nice results in the vid, my kids would be ecstatic to pull donuts with ours (still stock for now lol)
#28556
Sorry I haven't updated in a while...crazy busy with work. This is from 1hr ago. I'll make time to post build pics later:


Thank you Rob & Zen for your help. With the 17T sprocket, it reaches 16mph at 36v and after a ride around the subdivision it went from 40v to 36v. Lots of torque, sufficient run time, and the motor doesn't even get warm. Do you think it's safe to bring it up to 48V?

Can't thank you enough for the recommendation of this motor...I'm ready to purchase a 2nd and ditch the 900w Currie. It gets too hot just at steady state cruising and at 36v with 12t it only reaches 12mph. I had better results with the cheap MY1020.
#28557
AWESOME MAN , SOO HAPPY FOR U AND THE KID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
motor looks very well mounted and tore up that grass pretty nicely , yes go to 48v!!!
you just cant beat an industrial for the money , or even 3 times the money in this case..Whats the status on the other kart? did you try any other tooth count on this kart?
#28561
hmm, it looks like my links above to pics on FB did not work.
robnewyork wrote:AWESOME MAN , SOO HAPPY FOR U AND THE KID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
motor looks very well mounted and tore up that grass pretty nicely , yes go to 48v!!!
you just cant beat an industrial for the money , or even 3 times the money in this case..Whats the status on the other kart? did you try any other tooth count on this kart?
I'm so glad you talked me into that cheap $65 industrial...best decision so far and works well with the cheap YK43B.

Other kart is running the 900w Currie at 36v with the YK43B, down from the 48v that flipped me off LOL. It only reached 11mph compared to the MY1020 which ran at 14-15. I swapped in a 12T for now but it's still at 13mph. Motor gets VERY hot just at steady state cruising...not even high current demands of tearing up grass. I think I'll pick up another identical Ohio Motor and duplicate the build but keep at 36v. Cheapest I can find is $150 on ebay.

Lastly, I did not try any other sprockets besides a 17t. I bought a bigger one...I think 20t, but it won't fit unless I cut the Razor frame and space the motor higher. I think instead I'll pickup another battery for $45 and hopefully reach ~20mph at 48v. Then I'll be done.
#28562
man that buggy build turned out great! wondering if you're running a fuse off the battery pack and if so what fuse rating?
looks like that controller is the smaller YK43B clone...

if you're interested in another industrial a few of us have this leeson which the same seller has for offer right now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leeson-C4D17NK9 ... Sw3ydV1xjI
#28564
Hey Zen, that link did not work...can you repaste? I am interested in another motor.

No fuse. I have a 60a pushbutton reset breaker on the other cart that's too high, and I have a 45a spare, but I threw this one together quickly with no breaker/disconnect. I'll add a battery disconnect and clean up the wiring.

This 2nd YK43B has a different label than 1st one I have on my daughter's kart. I didn't know they were different.

I just took this 30min ago...I reached 21mph on the path in the background, not seen on the video:
#28565
Iworktofish wrote:This 2nd YK43B has a different label than 1st one I have on my daughter's kart. I didn't know they were different.
are the controllers the same size? i had assumed the one in the vid was not the YK43B but a smaller lookalike.

lookin' good @ 48v, love that takeoff sound! did you note the temps on the motor or controller after that run?

2nd attempt to link that leeson:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leeson-C4D17NK9 ... 5b26af90f1
#28566
good to hear.. nice video , ur tearing that grass up! the lesson zen racer linked will do the trick for 83 bux, its slightly lower rating and not internally cooled like the ohio so id guess 36v will be the maximum.. id email the seller and see if it comes with a base like the one u used on the ohio.The 14 tooth would add dramatic torque , but not worth the loss in top speed seeing as how the torque seems wild enough././
NO breaker reset is really worth worth it , for the money u would spend on a 200 amp buss fuse or 200 amp breaker you could buy another controller or extra battery or motor. And the cheaper ones will be flipping on and off all the time.Another note, the 900 watt should fetch 100 bucks on ebay if you score another industrial..
#28568
zen_racer wrote:are the controllers the same size? i had assumed the one in the vid was not the YK43B but a smaller lookalike.

lookin' good @ 48v, love that takeoff sound! did you note the temps on the motor or controller after that run?

2nd attempt to link that leeson:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leeson-C4D17NK9 ... 5b26af90f1
Thanks for the link. I just measured and the 2nd controller is smaller by 0.15" height, 0.2" width, and same length. I'm curious if the 2 are not the same, as the one that outputs more current should be running on my cart instead of my 9yr old's.

Neither motor nor controller wasn't even warm after 0.3mi. I'll go for a bit longer later this week, but I'm waiting on a set of brake pads from China. The ones I have wore uneven and do not make 100% contact with the rotor. Even taking up all the cable slack, the brakes are worthless, which makes stopping a concern at 21mph on a residential walking path. Her cart brakes work well though.

robnewyork wrote:i looked for aa good deal on a 12 v motor so you could run less batteries and have good top speed on the other kart but 199 new was the best i saw.
Thank you for looking. That Leeson looks nice and the price is right. But the RPM's are less and there's no fan. I will look to eventually pick up an identical Ohio Motor...that internal fan I suspect will go a long way in keeping the motor from burning up at 1.5 and 2x the voltage. It will also be easy for my friend to make the same brackets and weld them to the frame. I'll pick this up if I don't find something cheaper in a couple weeks http://www.ebay.com/itm/Orion-V-Bus-Hea ... 0403240618
#28569
Iworktofish wrote: I just measured and the 2nd controller is smaller by 0.15" height, 0.2" width, and same length. I'm curious if the 2 are not the same, as the one that outputs more current should be running on my cart instead of my 9yr old's.
ok, so based on the detail i can see from the vid i think you are running the same YK43B clone that i recently picked up. in my scooter build thread i've included a pic of the clone and YK43B for comparison:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2964

Image

the clone is rated for 30a, yet it has thicker gauge leads than the YK43B... why would it need thicker wire if only 30a output is the question that pops up.

i asked about the fuse because i was trying to determine how much current that clone was pushing. as detailed in my project thread i was planning on using the clone with lipo batts but i dont want too high of a current draw off these lipos for safety reasons - i think a YK43B would pull more amps than the discharge rating of these multistars.

now i'm wondering if that 30a rating is even close to accurate lol
#28570
Interesting, and yes, those 2 are the exact ones I have. Clone has thicker gauge wiring and rounded heatskink fins.

The YK43B (real one) running my Currie at 48v flipped me over backwards at full throttle from a stop.
The YK43B (clone) running my industrial at 48v lunges forward, but won't flip me over.

There are some other variables...different brand tires, batteries up front on my industrial build, and it rained earlier in the day when I was flipped over so the pavement was clean. But there may be some truth to the "clone" putting out less power at startup.

I unfortunately don't have equipment to measure that much current draw, but the friend who helped weld my brackets says he does. I'll see if he can measure next time I see him.
#28582
robnewyork wrote:heres a brand new motor that blows that motor out of the water for 25 more, 5400rpm at 36v

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-MOTOR-1-2HP- ... 2XfUO6SbLA
The Ohio motor is sized perfect that it just fits with minimal work. I'll have to size this one though to see.

What's interesting is I live in a small town called Gilberts, IL and the MFR of that motor is so close to me, that I literally could ride one of my dune buggy's to their building: http://localbiziness.com/biz/hallmark-i ... -362dd156d
I'll walk in and see if they'll sell direct.
#28583
thats actually a gread idea, the outside diameter is larger on the OHIO but the leeson imitation is a bit longer..hows the ohio holding up teperature wise on longer rides? is the 15ah really enough for decent run time? i ran 12 ah and 23 ah at different times on mine.we also built a cruiser with 35 ah not nearly as fast.. those 16000mah lipos are probably perfect for the ohio kart with the super light weight compact design , perhaps 60v !
#28588
I haven't ridden it since the brief test at 48v. I'll take it for a longer ride perhaps this weekend.

IDK about switching batteries anymore, as I just bought another 12v 15ah SLA for only $33. Maybe when these batteries go dead, i'll switch.

60v? LOL I'm already scared to flip this thing at 48v. Need limited slip and better brakes.
#28591
robnewyork wrote:hows the ohio holding up teperature wise on longer rides? is the 15ah really enough for decent run time?
I just took a ride tonight.
1.1mi
Top speed 21mph
Avg speed 14mph
Start voltage ~53
End voltage 51.1

Motor and controller had no change in temperature, did not even get warm at all. Again, I'm at 48v.

I intentionally took the ride late at night. A 45yr old mortgage banker does not look normal riding a kid sized dune buggy, thru the subdivision at 21mph LOL. I won't have an opportunity to go for a longer run until my daughter visits next weekend.
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